Military Values for the Ministry: Pastor Anthony Dockery, on Teachability, Inclusion, and Finding Common Ground

0:01 Jesse L Hammonds: Welcome to the Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise podcast with Dr. William T. Choctaw, MD, JD, where the doctor helps you unlock your full potential by equipping you with tools and knowledge in the areas of health, wealth, and wisdom. Anchored in his experience as a business executive, a physician surveyor for the joint commission, a former mayor, and over 50 years of experience as a general surgeon. You've got questions, he's got answers. So let's get started. Here's Dr. William T. Choctaw Dr William T. Choctaw: md kd. Well, thank you very well, very much, uh, pastor, doctor for joining us today. We're absolutely delighted to have you as part of our Health and Wealth and WISE podcast.

0:44 Uh, and, and welcome to our, our Zoom Studio. Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: Honored to be here. Dr William T. Choctaw: Great. So let me start off by saying, well, why don't you sort of tell us who you are and, and what you do and, and, uh, what, what our audience Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: would need to know about you. Excellent. Well, um, I was born in Orlando, Florida. And actually raised, raised in Detroit, Michigan. So, and so that's why I always say I'm from Detroit, because I was an infant when my parents moved us up to Detroit. Um, right after high school, I went into the United States Air Force.

1:26 And after a while I was in the Air Force, went to college, uh, got a degree, and then started competing to get commissioned, uh, got commissioned, then started competing for undergraduate pilot slots with the Air Force, uh, got selected for pilot training, uh, during that journey, um, acknowledged a call to the ministry with the Lord. And so I was flying and came into the ministry and, um, and then retired from the military. Uh, Pastor McCall was retired from St. Stephen and so, uh, but at that time I was actually looking to go to the airlines, I just got hired by American Airlines, had not gone to training with them, but had just got the, um, congratulatory, uh, letter, and And so, but the Lord had the plan for, to be the senior pastor here at St.

2:23 Stephen. I had already served as a minister of the ed and minister of youth. And, uh, and then, uh, came on as a senior pastor in 2008. It's been about 15 years. And of course, can't leave out my bride. Got married in, uh, 1990. Dr William T. Choctaw: Okay, okay. That's right. Don't want to leave out your bride. Let me ask you, what did you learn from the military? I Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: Wow, that's a good, broad question. There's so many lessons to learn in the military. Some of the things that I really appreciate about the military is how they are really good at kind of breaking you down to really learn who you are. When you are broken, uh, my grandfather used to say, truly when you are broken, that might be when you're most open.

3:09 And so that's also when, you know, I think I had more capacity to really learn what I was made of and what I was capable of doing. And the military, to me, is one of the most empowering organizations on the planet, uh, for young people. And so at 18 years old, you're making decisions, uh, that are life changing, life altering, life dictating. Uh, for people. And so, uh, that responsibility really, uh, was something that I cherished to, to get that so early. Uh, I think another thing the military really teaches is inclusion. You know, they're really about all races, all cultures, both genders, you know, every, everything.

3:52 It's, it's all one big team, one happy family. Uh, trying to find a rhythm, uh, together, uh, especially in the principle of war, right? And so, as tensions are going on, it's even more important, uh, that you can find that common ground and, and learning that we have more, uh, that is in common and alike. Then that is not a lie. So yeah, Dr William T. Choctaw: excellent. Excellent. Um, and I put full disclosure. I should say, uh, pastor doctor is my pastor. So I've known him for a number of years. And as a matter of fact, I've been a member of St.

4:32 Stephen's for 45 years. So I've seen a lot of this happen. Uh, particularly with your growth and, and, uh, the relationship that you had with, with, with Pastor McCall. Tell, tell me about that. Tell me about how, uh, he sort of passed the torch to you. He basically treated you as his son, uh, at least that was my perspective. Tell me about that relationship and how that relationship also affected, uh, you in terms of what you're doing now. What did you Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: learn from that? Ooh, yeah, another big, broad question there, Ian. You taught me so much. I used to say Pastor McCall is a person that was a father figure, that was a boss, that was a friend, that was a mentor.

5:23 Um, he, he really checked all of the boxes, uh, confidant, uh, yeah, he, he really did it all. And the teaching of Pats McCall and the mentoring, Pats McCall is one of those from the school of, it's more caught than taught. And so, uh, just hanging around him and he kind of left it up to me. To see and to glean and to gather. No, it wasn't a whole lot of this is how you should do this. Watch this It was watch me and you take it and you should get it if you missed it. You missed it. That's too bad, you know but um, he really was one that administration My goodness, there's, there's no one on the planet that I know of, uh, that understood administration like he does and, you know, a lot of people don't know in seminary, uh, they don't spend time or much time on administration, you know, when you're going to acquire a building, when you're maintaining a building, you're trying to sell a building, you know, when you're dealing with the city and when you're dealing with, um, legislator and all those type of things, you know, it's, it's just not covered.

6:33 And so, uh, yeah. And, uh, and QuickBooks and, you know, just simple things. They, they don't go over that stuff, unfortunately. Um, and so having someone like Dr. McCall to give opportunities to share and to be involved in that, priceless. Um, and then, you know, St. Stephen. It's a progressive church. He was one that, uh, pulled St. Stephen into the Southern Baptist Convention. Way back in the 70s, uh, when it was not a popular decision at all, uh, his contemporaries really frowned on it, but, uh, he understood the mission and the vision of the Southern Baptist Convention and knew that it was a better fit for St.

7:14 Stephen than the National Baptist Convention, uh, which would be predominantly, uh, black. And so, uh, he's always pioneered in that way, which then kind of leads and segues to the transition. Uh, I was not planning to be in this position, like I said, I was just aspiring to go to the airline, you know, he would be talking about retiring me and I said, I literally, I said, I'll be here until you retire, then that's probably right when we'll be working out for me to go to the airline. And, you know, he wasn't really saying, but I want you to stay here. You know, it wasn't that we weren't talking like that, you know, years and years ago. It wasn't until the last year or two when he was saying, Hey, you know, this is what I've really been praying about no matter, you know, so yeah, that's how that unfolded.

8:01 And then we had that year together where I served as the executive pastor. And, uh, and then we had one year where we're both here just really. Uh, passing the baton, but we already had, you know, 19 years prior to that to work and walk in harmony with each other. I can't tell how much I've learned and gleaned and experienced, uh, with him and his tutelage. Dr William T. Choctaw: Well, you know, I would certainly agree with that, and I'll share just a real quick story. I guess everybody has a McCall story, but I've known him for years, not personally, but mostly as a physician and that sort of thing. Um, when he was studying for his doctorate, um, and apparently part of the requirement was that you had to have advisors in different areas outside of the ministry.

8:52 who had to sign off. They would read your, um, uh, your, your, your document, uh, your thesis, and, uh, either approve or disapprove or whatever. So he asked me, I had someone who's completely outside of, uh, the ministry as a position, uh, to be one of his, uh, thesis advisors, and I was honored, obviously, to be asked, and I said, sure, absolutely. So, he says, and I read it, and, true story, uh, you know, when, when he and I met, you know, I said, I, I need to share something with you, and he said, okay. I said, you know, you know, I, I read your thesis from, uh, top to bottom, and I said, to be honest with you, I don't understand it.

9:34 I, I said, I, I, you know, I said, I'm not a minister, I'm just a lay person. Um, and I said, you know, you are my pastor. And I said, but the way I do things, you've gotta be the best of the best. Right. You know, it can't just be that you, you, you get a C or c plus you, you've gotta get the A plus. Mm-hmm, truth or, so I had him do it again. I said, I had to do it again and to his credit, to his credit, you know, he did not complain. He did not, um, he did not say anything that was sort of off the cuff and he said, okay. And he did it again, all of it.

10:15 I reread it. I said, this is good. Wow. And, and, you know, and most people never knew about it, now everybody knows about it. Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: Well, that's a good story, that's a really good story. It Dr William T. Choctaw: gave me an idea of the character of the man, is what Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: I'm trying to say. Absolutely, absolutely. And teachability is so important, regardless of where you aspire to or where you have arrived, that teachability is huge. Dr William T. Choctaw: Right. And, and, Jesse L Hammonds: and Dr William T. Choctaw: my, my coming in with, you've got to be the best of the best. I, you know, all that other stuff is fine. And, and he said, okay. And without missing a beat, there were other people who were also advisors that I, I don't, I knew some of them, but I, I don't know that many of them, but, but that always impressed me along with a lot of other things that have impressed me with him.

11:04 But that, that always stuck in my mind in terms of the, uh, his, his, his, desire to be the best of what he did. Um, okay, let's, let's, let's sort of, you, you mentioned your bride and tell me about your bride. Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: Tell me about my bride. Yes, uh, Yvonne grew up here in Los Angeles. She was a product of California and, um, loves the Lord. I met her, she was already a believer and we met, uh, I'm at the church right now and we met not. Three minutes from here, there used to be a skating rink right over here, and uh, we met at that skating rink and the way we met, we were both getting ready to put on our skates, but right when the session was beginning, and I went to put my shoes in a locker, and when I opened up the locker, there was a bag of Burger King in it.

12:00 It's just Burger King food. And so I opened it up and I'm pulling out Burger King. And I turned around to one of my friends. Yeah, I turned around to one of my friends and joked and I said, Man, There's the Burger King in the locker. And, um, and I said that to him. And then Jovani, she started laughing. And so when she started laughing, I, of course she caught my attention. I looked, I was like, oh, , she looks nice, huh? Alright, she's laughing. I said, Hmm. So, uh, later on that evening, uh, I just remembered that face. Remember her smile, her smiles would grab me and her laughing. So I asked her if she would skate. And, uh, she said, yes, they used to have this session called couple skating, right?

12:42 And so I asked her if she would skate during couple skating, and she said, yes. And the funny part, how in this is, um, as I was speaking with her, uh, I asked her right off, I said, so what's your name? And every time we went around going around, we were going by the speaker and I couldn't hear what she said. And I could only hear E at the end, E. And I'm like, What is her name? So I asked her twice and then I'm like, should I ask her this third time? I'm like, no, I'm not asking her again. So we went on with the night. The night ends. I asked her Can I have her phone number? She says no, I don't give up my phone number, you know this soon. I'm like, okay Well, how can I see you again? She said if you keep coming here, you'll see me again So, of course the next Sunday I was at the skating rink and she wasn't there So of course I said, I'm going to try one more Sunday and see if she shows up.

13:36 I came back the next Sunday and I still, and I walked up to her and I didn't say it's like, Hey, it's good to see you again. And I didn't know her name, but I just played it off and we skated again and I never said her name. And then I asked her that day, I said, well, can I have your phone number? She said, yeah, you can have my, I get her phone number. And that night, I called her. I said, Hello? I said, I gotta be honest with you. I don't know what your name is. I don't know. What's your name? It's just my name. You don't know Dr William T. Choctaw: my name? It's just Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: like, I said, every time we're going around, it was, I couldn't hear. So yeah, she said, it's Javonni. Like, I thought it was like Lonnie or Donnie or Shonnie. I don't know what it was.

14:19 Dr William T. Choctaw: That's great. And Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: the rest is history. The rest is history. The rest is history. It is. Dr William T. Choctaw: It's beautiful. I noticed one of the things, uh, in sort of looking over a number of things that you're involved with, and I'm going back to your ministry now, uh, that, uh, certainly, uh, Pastor McCall, uh, you know, got the church involved with the Southern Baptist Convention, but I noticed that you've been very involved also, um, with the Southern Baptist Convention, taking it to the next levels and that sort of thing. And certainly the way things are going on in the country, uh, that, that must be fought with a lot of challenges. What, what are some of the things that you've learned, uh, as you've dealt in the executive, uh, boards of the, um, uh, Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: Southern Baptist Organization.

15:05 Yeah, another good question. You know, um, and you've been on many boards as well, you know, we're around different people, whether It is those that come and, uh, help us with our lawn, or they come and help us with our roughage and rummage and everything else. People that help draw blood, or a doctor, or a lawyer, minister, or whatever. You know, that common thread, that common denominator leaks out that people are people. And that's what I see more than anything, even at the executive leadership levels in the Southern Baptist Convention. You know, sometimes You think, well, this was going to be a little different, right?

15:49 I can remember thinking, well, you know, if I learned this skill, get around this group, they're going to be a little bit different. Then you think, Oh, when I get around this group, Oh, they're going to be a little bit different. Find out it's just all people. And I think I've had the same thing, even thinking with. You know, a whole lot of pastors get together planning this and, you know, there's 14, uh, what was it, 50, 000 churches, 14 million people in Southern Baptist Convention. Oh yes, this, this is going to be different, right? It's not different. It's still dealing with people that are fraught with brokenness, right? And, and so that becomes a challenge. And so it just looks the same.

16:30 It smells the same. It tastes the same. It is the same. Um, and so, but it's a blessing to be there. Uh, and have a seat at the table, uh, to have a voice and be a part of the steering mechanism for the institution as it, you know, it benefits, uh, St. Stephen, of course, and it benefits the kingdom and it benefits SBC. Uh, and you know, it's no secret that SBC has been predominantly Caucasian for, you know, since its inception. And so, having inclusion is still a major task and a major piece for them, but it's, it's actually happening now and that's, that's huge. Uh, there are a lot of other sensitive issues that are not only spiritual, but they're also political and they're also social.

17:16 You know, like immigration, or, or dealing with racial social issues, or dealing with women in ministry and their role and what they can or cannot do, um, you know, uh, even legal issues of pastors and people that have broken the law. how they've treated people very similar to what happened with, uh, the Catholic priests and sexual abuse and, you know, child molestation. Oh, I mean, it's just, it's just the full gamut is there. So again, I go back to where I started. It's people gone people as we've had in the message here at St. What, what do Dr William T. Choctaw: you think? And, and this is my last Southern Baptist question, but what, what, what do you think is your What do you bring to the table, um, that can help them in your front, from your perspective, in terms of where they are now?

18:08 What do you try to bring to the Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: table with that? Yeah, another good question. I think what, what I have been able to bring in most places that I am, uh, blessed to serve. Is toleration and just that gift of trying to be a peacemaker, uh, trying to, trying to bring the two or the three or the four parts together to find where there is harmony, where there is some common ground, uh, to kind of bring down some of the edginess and the tension, uh, that for sure, and then just praying for godly wisdom in direction. You know, uh, as, as we're engaging in this more, learning a lot of people make decisions from an emotional place, uh, from a world view that isn't necessarily informed by a biblical view, uh, and, you know, just really trying to give those subtle reminders that This is bigger than all of us, right?

19:05 All of us, we gotta put our own personal agendas on the back burner. And you would think that simple and that that would be there, but unfortunately, uh, people get so passionate and so fixated on their own thing that they start missing or really do miss the main thing. So, um, and just helping people to hear one another. Yeah. You know, uh, and just sharing simple facts like this. Like, Uh, in our marriage, or in our friendships, or with our neighbor, people talk from a position of facts and feelings, and when you are listening, you should listen to whether or not they're sharing a fact, or if they're sharing a feeling, and if they're sharing a fact, you should answer or reply with a fact, but if they're sharing a feeling, you should You shouldn't answer with a fact, you should answer with a feel.

19:56 And just those simple things that I think kind of fly over people's heads in marriage and things like that. When a wife says she doesn't have anything to wear, uh, that's not really a fact, right? Because fact is, the closet's full. Right, right. But what she's really saying is, I don't feel like there's anything in here that I want to put onto there. Yes. And so, us answering with, the fact is, you got, you got clothes in this closet, you got clothes in that closet, you got clothes in this closet. Yeah, that's, that's not the answer you're looking for. The answer you're looking for, well, what's, what's going on with you today? I, I can sense that you're not feeling alright. Well, then I give a feeling for a feeling. Yes. So it helps. Yeah.

20:37 Good question. Dr William T. Choctaw: I think one of the things that, that you have, One of the ways that you have grown, and as an observer, I've watched this over a number of years, is your ability to work with others, um, that, that embraces a diversity approach. And I don't mean diversity just in terms of race and that, I mean diversity total, total. Um, um, and one of the things I've always believed that everything is a relationship and, you know, mutual respect, mutual trust and good communication. One of the things that I have noticed in St. Stephen's, the church that you pastor, that you actually have, uh, a, a combination of cultures in the church.

21:21 Uh, you have a, a Spanish language ministry that's mixed in with, with a basic Southern Baptist ministry. Uh, you're a predominantly African American church that's in a neighborhood or a city that's predominantly Hispanic. You have a food bank. that serves a large percentage of Asians. So, tell me what it is that you do that allows you to emphasize or to bring out the strength of that, of those diversities. A lot of people say, oh my goodness, we can't do this, you know. Blah, blah, blah. But you, you appear to thrive as a leader.

22:01 I mean, as a leader in this particular environment, what, what, what do you use? How does that work for you? What do you use to keep everybody moving in the same direction, even though they're very Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: diverse? Yeah, another another good question. And like I said at the beginning, I think that really goes back from the military and seeing how they're so diverse and understanding gifts and talents and the strength and diversity. Um, and, and then kind of learning culture. So another thing the military does is you, you travel to different places and you have different exposure. And you learn how to connect. You learn the simple things that help, uh, to build bridges.

22:44 And, uh, you also learn the things that can be a tad bit offensive and, and put off people. And so, just those simple things, you know, now, if you hit those major continents, if you've been to Europe, been to China, and, of course, you've been down under, and you've been to some of these major places, it gets to the place where you can kind of Connect on some level with almost anyone or any culture that you intersect. And as soon as that happens, then you have almost like you need an asset that's willing to kind of work with you because they know you're sensitive to their culture, or you're sensitive to their race, or you're sensitive to their worldview, or you're sensitive to their purpose and what they're trying to accomplish.

23:33 And once people know that you care about what they care about, yeah, it's easy because most of us, we just try to push and promote what we care about. Just take that moment to say, you know, so in Chinese culture, you know, matter of fact, I'll just give it, um, I was at a CBU graduation on Wednesday and when I was at the graduation I was sitting next to a guy that I know is Chinese, Richard Yu, I've known him a long time, and I asked him, and I've asked many cultures this over the years, and races, I said, hey, um, what's the best way you would want to. Have someone ask you, what, what is your country of origin, or what is your native tongue, or what is your nationality, you know, because you can ask that in the United States and people say, America, you know, I'm American, and you get a little offended, you know, even though they look like they're from Africa, or they sound like they're from Africa, or they sound like they're from Germany, or they sound, you know, whatever.

24:33 Um, So I asked him, what's the best way to, and my point is, simple things like that, where once you've built a little bit of relationship, learn how to build that bridge even better by asking those questions and being sensitive to the fact that, you know, there are things that are off putting. And I know I still need to learn how to connect even better with people. And then once you, once you can get those people all together in a room, then it's trying to find that common goal. Uh, for, like here at St. Stephen's, for ministry or in servant's arms, uh, to meet needs in the community, you know, which, or in SBC, you know, to meet needs globally.

25:17 uh, as a global institution. So, yeah, I Dr William T. Choctaw: know when I used to have talks about, uh, multicultural relationships in healthcare, um, I used to always use the phrase that respect transcends all cultures. You don't have to be an expert. Uh, you know, I'm certainly not an expert, but, but be respectful. And I would use as a clear example, you know, when you walk into the room, you know, introduce yourself, shake somebody's hand, shake everybody's hand in the room. And you would be amazed that as a physician, if you do that, even including the children, how immediately they say, Oh, this, this doctor is a little different because nobody's ever shaken my wife's hand or my husband's hand or whatever, but just basic stuff that our parents taught us, you know, let's just be respectful.

26:07 And, uh, and if you start there, uh, and then just sort of build on that, uh, but, but I think it's, it's a challenge is, and I think certainly society is making it more and more challenging, but I think it's important to have leaders like yourself, uh, to get who demonstrate that and who implement that, uh, to keep it balanced and keep us moving in the right direction. Our diversity is. uh, I think is Christlike, uh, from, uh, all the other people that he dealt with that were not maybe necessary from his city or his country, uh, but, but, uh, but you just treat people with respect. Uh, so.

26:47 Let me ask you this. Um, what, what are some of the, if, if you had to give a, if you had to give a masterclass, uh, to, uh, Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: to, I can't do that, I can't do that. Dr. Choctaw, he did the masterclass. Dr William T. Choctaw: No, no, no, no, no. I say to, um, 30, 20 year olds, um, and men and women, Uh, who were about to go out and, and do different parts of the country, different parts of the world. What, what would be some of the things that you would share with them, uh, in terms of how they can be effective and, Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: and make the world a better place? Yeah, I mean, the, the main thing is we already said it earlier and, um, and that's like you talked about with Dr.

27:31 McCall, be teachable, right? That's, that's, it's so important to Not feel like you know it all. You know, you come out of high school and you think, man, I got my diploma, I know everything. Right? You come out of the four year degree, and you got that diploma, I know everything. You graduate in the military or whatever the case, I know everything. You know, we get to these stages and we just, I know it all, I know it all. Teachability is so important, um, that you don't know it all. And then the next piece, which is exactly what you said, is, uh, to have that respect for whoever is before you. Uh, even though they don't respect you. Right.

28:11 Respect them. There's a battle right now between generations of who's gonna give the respect, and who demands respect, and who isn't respected. And I'm like, if you just give it, eventually it'll work out. Just give the respect, and don't worry about if you get it back, uh, for young people. And then preparation, right? If you're going to go and do something, whatever that is, then prepare. And then once you prepare, like you said, again, I can't, you're, you're giving the perfect examples. Don't go for the C plus and don't go for the B minus, right? Go for the A plus, go for the 100, right? Always try to put your very best.

28:54 effort out there. And this is regardless if it's something you're passionate about or not. Every opportunity is an interview. So always dress for success. Yes. Always. Because you never know who's watching. And so I'm not just talking about external dress. Yes. It's how you present every part of you. Knowing there's people. It's because a lot of times it's You're not even speaking or doing something for the people you see and the people you know. A lot of times you're doing things for the people you don't see and the people you don't know, that if you do it right, eventually you will know and you will be connected with to push whatever you're trying to bring even further.

29:37 But remembering that. And, you know, as young people, you know, we're typically just too short sighted. So, that's what I mainly try to convey to them is, uh, to own it. Excellent. Dr William T. Choctaw: So, is there anything else that you would want to leave with us? You know, we want to be respectful of your time and we're very grateful that you've been gracious enough to, to, to share some of your words of wisdom, uh, with us. Um, I, I am very optimistic about life in the world. I think, uh, there are a lot of good people like yourself and others who are out there every day. fighting the battles. And I think that that's what will, will, will make, um, um, uh, the good win out in, in the final analysis.

30:20 But any, any, anything you want to leave us with before we, Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: we let you go? Yes, sir. I'll leave you with two things. And again, I appreciate you inviting me. It's been an honor. Excellent questions that are insightful, thought provoking, which is always good. So grateful for you, sir, and what you have done and what you have accomplished. On so many levels, uh, reaching the pinnacle of the medical profession, being a surgeon, being a full on lawyer as well, a politician, I mean, you've done it all. And to come from where you have come, I'm sure you put your testimony out there, uh, it truly has been a beacon light for all of us, and so I'm grateful to you as well.

31:02 Um, but the two things I would close with is one, is life in general, spiritual, physical, mental, doesn't matter, it's about discipline and balance. So you have to have discipline to just sit here on this Zoom call, and the people that are listening have to have discipline just to sit there and take it all in. But then, you gotta have balance with whatever your disciplines are. Right? You want to be teachable, but at the same time, you don't want to, you know, feel like I sit in the classroom for the rest of my life and be a professional student, right? You want to be confident, but you don't want to be arrogant. So there's, life isn't just about the disciplines, it's also about balancing the parts in between.

31:48 And then it's about balancing our blessings, which is time, talent, and treasure. That I can't spend all my money. But I can't not spend any money. I can't burn the candle that both ends with my life, but I gotta burn the candle. Right. And so, it's having balance with my disciplines, and understanding if I have discipline in one area of my life, and that could be eating, then I can also have discipline in what I say, and when I say it, and how I say it. Because once I know I have the discipline muscle, all I have to do is spread it through the totality of my life. And then balance those. Uh, with God's help, so discipline and balance, and then the last thing is what Christ said so clearly, I didn't come to this world, uh, to be served, but I came to serve.

32:36 And that's why St. Stephen, our mission and our vision, all is tied up in be God's servant, in God's service. serving God's people. And so the common denominator in there is serve. And do your very best to serve God. Do your very best if you're in a local church or local community, serve the church and do your very best to serve your community. And of course, serve your family. That's what I closed out with, share with people, be your best self, put forth your best effort. God has given you gifts, talents, and abilities. Make sure that you wring it out for everything it is and give the very best you can.

33:21 Don't sham and don't half step. There's too much going Dr William T. Choctaw: on. Exactly. Thank you very much Pastor Dockery. May God continue to bless and keep you, um, and keep you with us for a very long time. Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: Well, thank you as well. Thank you. All right. And Brother Hatch. sir. So, Dr William T. Choctaw: to all of you listening, have a wonderful day. God bless. Okay, Jesse, that's a wrap. That's a wrap. We're out. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That was very good. I enjoyed that. I'm part of God's sister doctorate.

34:04 Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: Yeah. Her skating prowess. That's Dr William T. Choctaw: right. One of the reasons I'll let you go When we started this, it sort of dawned on me that in effect This is sort of a legacy. That's really what this is. I mean, you can write a book, you can write an autobiography, you can do all that, that's fine. But you can also do a podcast, and podcasts in cyberspace, and that's forever. Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: That's forever. Evergreen. Dr William T. Choctaw: I think just having it out there, you know, for people to listen to whenever they want it, for you to listen to over and over again, whatever you want, I think is a blessing for all of us.

34:45 So thank you, thank you, thank you so much for being willing to take time out of your business schedule and to speak to our audience. And I think we're all blessed, just from hearing your story. Because we all learn things that we don't know. 100 Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: percent Yes, sir. I'm grateful. I'm grateful that you're putting yourself out there to share all that you've learned over the years as well. And again, like you said before, a lot of people don't hear things from a doctor, right? You get about a minute and a half in the doctor's office as they're splitting off to the next person. And that's it. So to have you sitting on a podcast for 30 minutes or an hour or the masterclass for an hour, two hours, And having access to an MD and the world experiences you've had and other things.

35:34 It's priceless that you're willing to avail yourself. So you're an epitome of what I was just talking about. God serving in God's service, serving God's people. Right? And achieving excellence. All of those things. Pastor, you know, at the beginning Dr William T. Choctaw: Uh, when, and when he came up with the, the masterclass concept with the Reverend Collins and I overheard that, that was Jesse L Hammonds: my thought right there, that, hey, somebody else needs to Dr William T. Choctaw: hear this, you know, and unless they're at the church Jesse L Hammonds: and with the code to get into the zoom call and all that, or, uh, or come to the class, it's going to stay within the four walls and there, there's gotta be a way to get that out.

36:15 And so, Dr William T. Choctaw: you know, that's how a lot of this came to pass as well. Jesse L Hammonds: And, um, and some, um, part of the questions I was Dr William T. Choctaw: going to ask you. Um, this is, you know, Jesse L Hammonds: you know, off, off camera, whatever, but, uh, was, uh, as it relates to coming out of that, uh, the pandemic, um, you know, how did that feel, you know, I mean, what were some of the challenges there and then Dr William T. Choctaw: what was some of the pleasant surprises, especially as related to, uh, the digital, you know, uh, landscape Jesse L Hammonds: and, and how, how we have had to, you know, Adapt to, Dr William T. Choctaw: you know, pandemic and post Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: pandemic.

36:58 Yeah, it was huge. I think the best day was when we finally had people come back in person and you could see people again. Uh, that's been huge. That day, I mean, I couldn't fight back the emotion of just seeing people back or touching people again. Um, yeah, you just don't know what was missing until it was really missing. Um, the Some of the unforeseen is, like you said, it's, it's now this electronic reach and touch that we have. It's, I was at a hospital, um, out in Indio. One of our members happened to get sick out there, so they were still out there.

37:39 So I drove out there, see the member. I walked out, was finished with our, our member. And I was walking by another, uh, room. And there was a family, a couple people standing by the door, and some other people in the room. And as I was walking by, they were like, Dockery! You know, turn around, again, I'm in India. So I turn around, and I'm like, Hey, hi. And they're like, Pastor Dockery! Yeah, that's me, that's me. And they literally said, You don't know us. But we're virtually at church every single Sunday, like, Oh, great. And you know, our family members here sick, you know, you might pray and I'm like, yeah, we're going to pray for them.

38:22 But the point being, have we not had the pandemic that probably wouldn't have happened. And these people are connected. And said, you're our pastor. We come every Sunday. This is our church. I would have never known. Right. And we probably wouldn't even have this reach. And that goes on and on. We look at the metrics of people. There are people, we have a huge contingent in Russia. Huge. Like huge. Right. So where did that come from? No idea. Right, but there's a huge contingent of people every single Sunday that are watching from Russia. Uh, and then all over the place, and all over, there's a whole lot of them in Russia for whatever reason. Right. Yeah.

39:04 You know, it was a tough time, obviously, a lot of loss, a lot of difficulty, and church still isn't the same. I mean, but I don't expect it to be the same. There's always things that force corrections and movement, and this has been our correction and our movement. So we just gotta work with it. Part of the, Dr William T. Choctaw: one of the things that has really helped St. Stephen's is you and church leadership had The idea pre pandemic about Zoom and that sort of thing, you know, it didn't start with the pandemic. So you were just able to build on that, whereas a lot of other organizations had to start from scratch when they wanted to, because they had nothing in place. At least you had some infrastructure that you can expand and grow on. But I think that's another way that God has blessed us and, and, and, and grateful also for, for your leadership.

39:53 I don't want to keep you too long and you have a great rest of your Dr. Anthony L. Dockery: Saturday guys do the same I'll pray for you guys. I'm grateful for what you're doing. Let me pray for y'all for this podcast Lord continues to use Thank you father. Thank you for your grace and mercy. Thank you for being in the midst of this time grateful for dr Choctaw and Lord the heart that you gave him to do this and to serve in his capacity What we know is countless, and in some ways even immeasurable, the impact that he's having and that they're making in having this podcast and doing the masterclass, and I praise you Conceited, use it for your glory, for your honor. Thank you to Brother Hammonds as well and his technical prowess and ability and willingness to serve and to be there to get this word out.

40:37 Uh, where we know the topics and the things that they're covering, uh, it is so important. Even dealing with holiday stresses and family and issues, we're putting words out like that in a timely fashion, right, when people are dealing with it, is truly a blessing. So continue to use both of them. Bless their households and give them good health and strength in Jesus Christ's name. We love you, Lord. Amen. Amen. Thank you Jesse L Hammonds: for listening to this episode of the Healthy, Wealthy, and Wise podcast with Dr. William T. Choctaw, MD, JD. Be sure to check out other great episodes covering areas of health, wealth, and wisdom at thwwp. com. And while you're there, be sure to check out the books, blogs, and other literature in your preferred format.

41:23 And don't forget to leave a review, subscribe, share, and support the podcast. That's at THWWP. com. You've been listening to the healthy, wealthy, and wise podcast with Dr. William T. Choctaw, MD, Dr William T. Choctaw: JD.